Curse

Lord Natural · May 23, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ssassin

Yes, the map you play on does indeed effect your changes of winning, I personally would love it if AB was permentatly frozen on saltspray beach, the neutral map. By the sounds of it, your one of the people that comes to play AB only when the map is in your favor, which discredits your entire post imho. Come to me with that attitude after winning a good number of games deep in enemy terrority (yes, it is possible, I do it often) and show me a few screenies to back it up, and we will talk. Also, if its only YOUR build that sucks, and the rest of your team knows what they are doing, then yes, 1 person in a 12v12 doesnt have a huge impact, unless they a monk or are playing an equally important role.

I think you missed my point. I go into AB's (infrequently) with a guild or friends group of 4. It's something you do when you're just really bored, don't feel like the effort of organized pvp, and just want to mess around. We usually just roll completely random builds and run around looking to have fun. I can roll a life transfer necro (lol), and easily end up with a multiple kill-to-death ratio simply due to the woefully inadequate builds used by the opposition.

If you're organizing groups with decisive builds and strategy for AB's, then that's fine too. It's like the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer joins the under-10 karate class and dominates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ssassin

]As for your post about RA, I still remember my first 10 win streak. It was on a lvl 16 hammer warrior, with no elite skill, with a build that revolved around Armor of Earth. This was way, way back, like 15 months ago. I thought I was the greatest thing ever, but it was actually just cause we had a godly monk, which i now reliese. So, no, you dont need to have a clue to do good in RA. I fully admit that I had little understanding of the game mechanics at that point.

Like I said, it's not impossible to have success with a craptacular build, but it's certainly improbable. You have a much greater chance to emerge victorious running random crap in ABs than in RA. There are nights when the luck factor is so far against me in RA that I can't muster a point with ANY potent build, let alone an idiotic one.

I don't mean to defend RA so much, because it is what it is: A place to practice builds and play some quick PvP. But to lower it to the level of ABs is also unfair. Even with the luck factor in RA, you will eventually face worthy competition, especially at the right hours. I can't say the same of ABs.

Riotgear · May 24, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I'll believe they're not neglecting Factions PvP when the turtles in Aspenwood stop getting stuck in the door.

Nurse With Wound · May 24, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ssassin

As any ABer will tell you, AB takes just as much skill to be good at as HA.

AB takes as much skill as HA..... Also your 'description' of pvp modes proves your lack of experience in real, organized pvp. Basically, you don't know what you're talking about, and your post is biased. AB is a joke arena, full of mending wammos, flare spammers and random tards, and it doesn't deserve similar rewards to higher forms of pvp, just like you wouldn't expect a school basketball team to be rewarded as well as NBA players.

Also, in my opinion, the problems with pvp aren't inadequate rewards, but lack of real support from developers for the community ( deaf ear on players requests, constant game balance problems, ATs, half-assed attempts to improve HA, lack of any support for HA and TA and aggressive promotion of failed, unnecessary HvH format... I could go on forever ), its enough to say that rewards aren't really important, this is non-issue.

This thread fails on so many levels I'm speechless, however, I don't see a reason to close it.... yet... Feel free to continue discussion in here, but please, avoid biased opinions, QQ'ing, "omg those elitists" rants, comparing serious pvp to random arenas ( AB/ RA ) and similar BS. Gladiator's Arena isn't a place for such trash.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

AB is a joke arena, full of mending wammos, flare spammers and random tards, and it doesn't deserve similar rewards to higher forms of pvp, just like you wouldn't expect a school basketball team to be rewarded as well as NBA players.

Heh AB rewards have lessened, we're talking inflation here :P. And it wasn't the OP's intention to piss on HA or even talk about it too much. Hes in my guild, and we don't play HA, so we don't piss on it either. We're trying to discuss factions PvP, but somewhere it all turned to shit, and for my part, I apologize for the drama caused

.

On skill: I don't have the connections to engage in HA or GvG too often, but I do play pretty often. Hell I could be the best player in the world (I am not, mind you) but when I don't steamroll HA or GvG arenas noone will really notice. There's sure to be more guys like me on the aNet servers.

On rewards: I think rewards are a pretty subjective thing, there is no higher/lower reward imo. I bet you are as happy with HA rank as a rabid PvE-er is with a vanquisher title. Rewards should appeal to the players in certain arenas. Some guy a few posts back posted about a random gold. I would like to see merchants accepting faction as payment for certain stuff. Or some title that would show how many shrines a person capped, or how many kills he scored. 4ssassins point was also pretty good, why doesn't faction add up to your title when you exchange it for goods? I think a lot of FF guilds would be happy if they would change that.

4ssassin · May 24, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

your 'description' of pvp modes proves your lack of experience in real, organized pvp.

Gladiator's Arena isn't a place for such trash.

Believe it or not, I actually spent 2 hrs on that little post. Personal issues with family kept intervening, and eventually I was forced to strip down my descriptions and include wiki links for some of the more complex ones. Dont mistake lack of time put into descriptions for my knowledge about the game mechanics, as I am pretty much anal about knowing as much about this game as I possibly can

And as for Gladiator's Arena not being the place for this ( I fail to see why you felt the need to call this post trash...maybe because we are talking about something that you personally dont like? Would a mod ban me on personal preference? Aren't they supposed to be above that?) then please explain why my thread was MOVED from Riverside Inn to here. Hmmm? You don't like it here, please, by all means, feel free to move it back.

EDIT: for my crappy spelling

Riotgear · May 24, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

4ssassin, regardless of how long you spent typing it, claiming that AB requires as much skill as HA is flamebait at its worst. My favorite AB build depends on retards ignoring hex descriptions. You can make your team lose there by using Glyph of Renewal and Iron Mist on one person because people are too retarded to attack something that isn't immune to damage, which is the same reason earth tanks (the ultimate joke of a build) works so well there. Half of the "worst build ever" thread is from AB.

AB faction exchange value has deteriorated not because of Anet's lack of action, but because of lack of demand. There simply aren't as many people pursuing the Luxon and Kurzick armor sets, so amber and jade prices have crashed. AFKbots in Aspenwood have also contributed to pushing Jade value below the 200 gold mark.

The bigger problems with Factions PvP just come from wasted potential. Aspenwood would be a fun diversion.... if the turtles weren't getting stuck in the gates and 3/8 people weren't AFKbots. Alliance Battles had a lot of potential to provide a hectic, larger-scale, tactical, interesting PvP format... and turned it into RA 2.0 by not allowing team pairings to be picked in advance. Jade Quarry had potential to be another interesting diversion.... but it's basically just AB with the rewards cut in half.

Rewards (with the exception of JQ) are really the least concern. The bragging rights from a title are probably worth more than the terrible value of jade and amber now, yet Aspenwood and ABs are both as populated as ever.

Patrograd · May 24, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

AB is fun in a kind of lighthearted way, probably more fun than RA since all the leavers have ruined that particular format, but its not serious PVP is it? Its the kind of PVP you can play, and if you suck hard, it doesnt matter, you can run funky builds and test out skill combinations and no-one will notice if they dont work. The rewards are actually not too shabby either, 1000 Kurzick faction buys you a lump of amber, which is worth a reasonable amount of gold I guess (or was the last time I checked) and you can pick up 1000 faction pretty fast

But even if you take it semi-seriously, and go in with a group of guys you know and have a "proper" team build and voice comms, you are still dependant for winning on the other 8 guys on your team not sucking and/or taking it semi-seriously too, and/or the other side not having a clue, and to be honest, everything but the last of those is a pretty rare occurence.

At the end of the day, until such time as this is a proper 12 man format with a team you can plan and build ahead of time its going to be nothing other than a bit of fun, easily acessible PVP for the PVEers and lighthearted mucking about for the PVPers. Shame, because the strategic elements of it and the size of the maps would be awesome to play a proper match on. *shrug*.

I guess that having light hearted PVP is more important though than another "elitist" format, eh? I mean, the game needs somewhere for the losers to feel at home, as in GvG and HA they arent very welcome for some reason. :-)

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

My favorite AB build depends on retards ignoring hex descriptions. You can make your team lose there by using Glyph of Renewal and Iron Mist on one person because people are too retarded to attack something that isn't immune to damage, which is the same reason earth tanks (the ultimate joke of a build) works so well there.

If you want to run a build like that, feel free. You can just be sure that AB won't get any more interesting. Heh and the earth tanks are hilarious indeed, there are so many times we capped a shrine and the earth tank was standing right next to us wondering why we didn't attack him. Even a battlefield needs lawn ornaments ^^.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

AB faction exchange value has deteriorated not because of Anet's lack of action, but because of lack of demand. There simply aren't as many people pursuing the Luxon and Kurzick armor sets, so amber and jade prices have crashed. AFKbots in Aspenwood have also contributed to pushing Jade value below the 200 gold mark.

That is very true indeed, but it leaves AB fans shafted as an annoying side effect, thats too bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There are legitimate complaints to be made about Factions PvP, but the rewards are not one of them.

Depends, me also PvE-er, me like shiny thingys

. Rewards for actually playing the game and not farming it (I hate farming) should always be supported imo. I have 6 chars and I bought all skills and armor with money generated by playing AB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

- Aspenwood is buggy (turtles still get stuck in the gates, a bug that's been untouched for 13 months now)
- Aspenwood is plagued by leechers (several of which are likely bots, since they're on 24/7)
- Jade Quarry is empty because it's basically just AB with worse rewards
- ABs had very strong potential as a "serious" PvP format concept-wise, much more so than HvH ever did, but has never provided a way to choose your allies to turn it into one. It's basically team-RA.

Yeah, a bloody shame indeed. Team-ra is exaggerating things, but organised in a 12 man team AB would be too sexy. I hope they will implement that some day, I already play AB's as efficient as I possibly can, so I think I wouldn't do too bad in such a game mode.

Dzan · May 24, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Heh AB rewards have lessened, we're talking inflation here :P.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person with a basic understanding of economics on this forum. The fact that amber and jadeite are decreasing in value is due to deflation, not inflation. When gold is worth more, you can buy more with it. 1 platinum is worth more now than it used to be, so you can buy more Jadeite with it.

P.S. Alliance battles are retarded. Thats where I go when I want to find funny screen shots that make RA scrubs seem good by comparison.

Frantic-Sheep · May 24, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Rewards are fine

You can either go for the title, or go for gold. I go to AB to have some casual play fun, its less stressing than any other pvp format. (And you even get rewards when you lose!). HoH chests are only available to experienced HA members. You really get more gold in AB than HA in general (unless you get to HoH and have a lucky drop - most of them arent that interesting). GvG rewards are only for people who have success in AT's and have their own rewards that is fine too in my eyes. HB shouldnt have the same stuff as GvG AT's tho, its far too overrated for a broken format, but thats not what the thread is about I guess - lets not go there..

Only yeah - pricedrops is something that you cant do much about it and is only 'logical' when the armor sets are less with demand.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person with a basic understanding of economics on this forum. The fact that amber and jadeite are decreasing in value is due to deflation, not inflation. When gold is worth more, you can buy more with it. 1 platinum is worth more now than it used to be, so you can buy more Jadeite with it.

P.S. Alliance battles are retarded. Thats where I go when I want to find funny screen shots that make RA scrubs seem good by comparison.

Hmm of course I don't expect it to rain expensive goodies when ab-ing, but for a notable achievement a reward wouldn't be that bad. What about getting a shiny weapon when you win a battle deep in enemy territory? Lore wise it makes sense, sounds a bit like pillaging the enemy fort. Of course it shouldn't be über rare weps worth a 100k, I was more thinking about regular weapons with decent stats (Or inscribable gothic axes :P). It would maybe decrease the waits a bit as well because people normally aren't in a hurry to fight in maps that aren't in their favor.

You should be really careful indeed when introducing stuff like that and your remark makes good sense, that's the reason why people shouldn't get it on a silver platter. Obtaining stuff with too much ease isn't really GW-alike anyway.

Oh yeah, and people please stop whining about what's retarded and what not. I have a brain of my own and it's working quite well. Do you mind if I decide how to play my game myself (it's my $150 ffs

).

Dzan · May 24, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

I don't recall saying that you can't continue to enjoy AB. My main point was you don't know the difference between inflation and deflation and that Alliance battles aren't competitive.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Nope it's not competitive, you can't play competitively on imbalanced maps in the first place (I do actually play other PvP then AB too, so I more or less kow the differences). That's what's so stupid about how it is implemented and that's exactly why I say there should be an extra reason for people to play those maps. Either make them more attractive or balance them out. that would solve the biggest gripes: the waits and the unfair headstart.

fenix · May 24, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

I think I must address this issue of ABers being more skillful than HAers.

Firstly, AB is simply TA with 2 other teams, against 3 TA teams. But funnily, it's actually more like RA, but people actually form their own teams. Builds that people play are either stupid, or retarded, and aren't good in ANY way. The exceptions are the players who are actually GvGers/HAers wasting time.

The only time you EVER need skill in AB, is when the other 8 players insist on killing people instead of playing properly (which is the most of the time, since tards seem to gather there). It's the only time you need to be good, as it's not as easy capping all the shrines by yourself, which your teammates run about not knowing how to play.

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I think I must address this issue of ABers being more skillful than HAers.

I think you should rather not:
-This is no HA thread
-You and I damn well know HA isn't easy
-This thread has been raped before, let's not rape it again and give the mods headaches
-This thread is about factions PvP

kkthxbye ><

fenix · May 24, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I think you should rather not:
-This is no HA thread
-You and I damn well know HA isn't easy
-This thread has been raped before, let's not rape it again and give the mods headaches
-This thread is about factions PvP

kkthxbye ><

I think you should rather not:

-Be a tard

This thread is useless, no one cares about Factions PvP, as it ISNT PvP. It's stupid. Fort Aspenwood (or Asspenwood as it should be called), is pointless and full of AFKers, and Jade Quarry is even worse, as no one goes there.

If it was PROPER PvP, it'd be on Battle Isle. AMIRITE? Yes, I am. Gtfo.

Apple · May 24, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

^Agreed, gtfo

bungusmaximus · May 24, 2007, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I think you should rather not:

-Be a tard

This thread is useless, no one cares about Factions PvP, as it ISNT PvP. It's stupid. Fort Aspenwood (or Asspenwood as it should be called), is pointless and full of AFKers, and Jade Quarry is even worse, as no one goes there.

If it was PROPER PvP, it'd be on Battle Isle. AMIRITE? Yes, I am. Gtfo.

Oh please c'mon, if you read back a few pages you can see flaming different PvP modes doesn't go anywhere, if you don't like, don't play. The OP didn't mean to piss on HA at all, it was just a clumsy remark. And that arrogance to decide for other people what they care about or not is really starting to greatly annoy me. Being called a tard by a guy that's likely to be half my age annoys me even more. Insulting people doesn't suit you dude, you wouldnt dare to if I was standing right next to you. Try to keep it GOREDENGINEcivil! I post quite a lot on Guru and I try to be polite and respectful, I expect other people to extend me the same courtesy.

Patccmoi · May 24, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

To me, AB are simply a wasted potential atm. So much of GW PvP feels like it lately it's really sad. If you actually read those forums regularly, you'd notice that a lot of high level players think that AB has lots of potential IF you could select your team.

Sadly, any game type where you can't decide 2/3 of your team and gives PvE rewards (i.e. encourages PvErs to enter) will never be serious and will always be populated with a majority of 'bad' players (in PvP anyway). It's just normal, and it's not to denigrate people in there, they just don't know the basics of GW PvP most of the time. Sure they might know the skills, but they have no real teamwork, hell many don't even seem to notice the game objectives of AB (capping shrines and not forming a big pointless battle in center). Atm, it's at best a very casual form of PvP. You take it seriously? Fine, but it doesn't make it so as a vast majority of players playing there don't and sadly those will be on your team as often as on the other.

I don't care if they leave a random part of AB. Just like i don't care that RA exists when TA is there. Random casual PvP is good for people starting or PvErs that want to play some sort of PvP without getting bashed over and over.

But why did they never make Alliance Battle be this? Alliance Battle just like there is Guild Battles?

You know, something like you can pick your 12, say 6-8 of them have to be from your Alliance, and then do some sort of Alliance ladder? When you win you get X points, when you lose you lose X points, ofc scaling accordingly to map size with very small penalty for losing when you're in the last maps. Hell, it could even be frozen in center map and they could add 2-3 'balanced' maps with GW:EN so that there's some sort of variety. Give slightly better rewards as it'd very likely be harder to win (say double faction gained on win or something). If the ladder doesn't work (might be too complicated for Alliances to control who's playing and might lead to more edrama than necessary), you could also do it based on guild (6 players have to be from the guild) .

Or just trash the ladder altogether but give significant rewards. They could make it also a 'map progression' of sort ala HA. For example, when you start you're in your base (or in center), and every win you go one map further trying to reach the other team's base, with every map giving say a bit more faction, etc. If you win in the other team's base, you can 'Pillage' it, i.e. chest ala HA.

So basically when you start you're in your home map (your fort), trying to beat off the other side's team that actually managed to push up to there. If there is none, well you simply 'skip' this one just like you skip in HA. And every win you will progress from map to map (or skip if there's no opposition) until you reach the last map where you can hopefully manage to win there and 'Pillage'. And as you win, the team facing you will rotate from people entering AB on the other side. Do something like an HoH chest in the end and good faction reward, and i'm convinced that it would attract a lot of people in there.

See, there is lots of potential on what you could do with it to make it attractive and competitive. But none of it is actually done. AB is just left alone as a 'casual' PvP that just brings PvErs in or PvPers that are bored and a small minority of people taking it seriously that are shafted because nobody else, even in their team, does. Just like HvH is limited to Heroes when it could be a great 4v4 fight. Or FA would be awesome casual PvP if they got rid of Leechers. Although that's not particularly easy, at least they could do SOMETHING about it (account banned from FA for 1 hour if you don't move at all during a game for example. I'm sure there's many better suggestions out there). Or HA would be nice if they finished tweaking it instead of trying something, doing some nice changes (random HoH) but also mistakes (kill count) and leaving those there forever. Or GvG would be better if they fixed the damn problem with 'map-abuse' builds ala hex on Jade by doing a random map system instead of a 'map of the worse team' system. So many LITTLE things that don't take much to implement and that would improve GW PvP enormously in the end. But no one's there doing it on the other side. And it makes GW one of the most frustrating game to competitive players, because they stick to it seeing all the potential that's there, but this potential is just left there to rot.

ok, /rant.

fenix · May 24, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Oh please c'mon, if you read back a few pages you can see flaming different PvP modes doesn't go anywhere, if you don't like, don't play. The OP didn't mean to piss on HA at all, it was just a clumsy remark. And that arrogance to decide for other people what they care about or not is really starting to greatly annoy me. Being called a tard by a guy that's likely to be half my age annoys me even more. Insulting people doesn't suit you dude, you wouldnt dare to if I was standing right next to you. Try to keep it GOREDENGINEcivil! I post quite a lot on Guru and I try to be polite and respectful, I expect other people to extend me the same courtesy.

Unless you're the age of my parents, then no, you aren't. Insulting people doesn't suit me? You obviously don't know me. But as they say, 'if the shoe fits'. If you post like a tard, then you'll be called a tard. AB does not, and never will be, equivalent to PvP, as it's FULL of tards.

This is the internet. Anonymity means I can say whatever I want. And even if you DID know who I am, I'd say it anyway. People who think that Factions 'PvP' is real PvP, are wrong. Plain and simple. IF YOU CAN PLAY HARD MODE FORT ASPENWOOD, THEN IT ISN'T PVP. Arguement over. You'll never see Hard Mode in REAL PvP, and yet you can do Hard Mode in Jade Quarry/Aspenwood. Find the thread yourself, you can play Hard Mode in those "PvP" zones.

'Nuff said.